Talk:Akira Mado/@comment-27704373-20170402174054/@comment-2215706-20170404174200

@Dayne Dariel

Ohh, good discussion! Thanks. :) I'll only be discussing the first post directed at me in this single post, since this is pretty long.

I mostly agree with you - my previous post has generalizations made for the sake of not getting lost in specifics, so now I'll get into them.



1. It is indeed wishful thinking, but it's what the ghouls at Anteiku stood by. Breaking it wouldn't solve things, but it could have several effects:

1.1 If enough ghouls can take part in it, humans realizing that not all ghouls are violent predators, and thus further questioning whether they have a place in society and the use(lessness) of the CCG. Eto had already started a change regarding the first one. The latter took a huge blow by the recent human-clown attack, but that was clearly staged to stunt this reflection.

1.2 After the realization that ghouls share the same rationale as humans, yet more disapproval of the CCG - is the complete extermination of ghouls necessary at all, when there are ghouls that don't need to be retaliated against?

1.3 The stalemate could just as well be considered a ceasefire, where, in a state of "peace", negotiations can be made regarding possible choices, without issues of hitting, relataliating, etc. being in the way. Then again, where the manga is leading it's looking like these will have to be made despite these instead of during a peaceful period.

Again, that's all very wishful thinking - but especially regarding the first two points, it seems to me to be what Yoshimura stood for, and what Eto and Arima hoped to achieve by allowing Kaneki to become OEK and creating Goat. Do I agree? It depends on how credibly Ishida manages to pull it off. Reading fiction involves some degree of suspension of disbelief, which I'm sure will be necessary no matter what solution is given by the conclusion of the series.



2. I don't believe there's a disagreement here, as your reasoning seems to lead exactly to the same thing I'm saying: an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Remember the original idiom is "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". This means setting things even, and implies that after doing so, that much will be accepted at justice. The truth is not always this. There are criminals who feel wronged after being put in jail, there are children who will feel wronged for being punished after not being allowed to get away with cheating in a test. Many people want their aggressors to suffer more than they were made to suffer.

The meaning of Gandhi's variation which I used is derived from that: people (or here, anyone with a human rationale, which includes ghouls) will not be satisfied with making things even. It has always considered four eyes, and the same assumption you make of humans always choosing violence. As long as there is another eye to take, anyone who has been dealt damage to, rightfully or not, will most likely choose to do so.

The first part of the manga dealt precisely with what you said: is violence inevitable as long as humans are the nutrients of ghouls? Anteiku ghouls seemed to advocate for the contrary. But the fact that Yoshimura preferred scavenging, while seemingly not actively condemning hunting, seems to indicate that he also shared some of your doubts. I will not go further into this because, as I said already, I'm ready to take Ishida's solution before making one of my own.



3. (Humanity is evil) And here is one of the sweeping overgeneralizations that I made, heh. The CCG justifies its existence in defending humankind, but I believe after the OEK (and maybe some dangerous ghouls, if there were more) from some time ago was erradicated, the CCG should have ended as well. Unfortunately, many doves (Amon, Takizawa, Ui, etc; but not sadistic people like Kureo or Kijima), as well as the humans who believe the CCG is protecting them, fall right into their guise of self-defense. The current goal of CCG seemed to be a Washuu supremacy complot, which only the Washuus seem to know about. What many investigators unknowingly play into seems to be a smoke screen that both gives them the leeway to do all their experiments and whatnot, while maintaning a good public appearance and making them more powerful.



<p style="font-weight:normal;">4. (Humans are pigs) I tried my best to find the quote on it, but I couldn't, so I'll just have to give you the gist of it. Did you ever read Ishida's previous webcomic (The P*nisman), which Tokyo Ghoul borrows heavily from? One of the themes, though extremely well hidden, was environmentalism, which Ishida stated explicitly. So yes, what you're saying sounds perfectly reasonable, although I am not sure it would be the solution Ishida gives to the series; however, the full setting in itself is definitely grounds for this kind of discussion, which means the theme was properly conveyed.

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">5. (Breaking the cycle of violence) And yes, this we can agree on. Nothing more to add other than it has to be both parties to give up something.