Talk:Akira Mado/@comment-27704373-20170402174054/@comment-2215706-20170404224104

@Touli

Re: Touka killing Ippei. You answered yourself.

>They are putting their emotional preferences before other life, that is petty

>Choosing your feelings over other life is evil



>Do you think we should spare people who are going to end up murdering loads of others in their lifetime?

For the last statement, what about ghouls, then? Your argument only works if there were already facilities that enabled ghouls not to kill. Let's take a life average of 75 years, the statement that a ghoul needed to feed once a month to survive, and let's also assume a child ghoul will just need half as much nourishment for their first 15 years of life. That's 810 humans a single ghoul will eat in their lifetime. Even if you take every single death from suicide in Japan and assume a ghoul will consume them, all of those can only feed some 2,100 ghouls. Your rationale is exactly the same the CCG is using against ghouls, but applied to humans.

>Its not as if Ippei was going to stop or anything, his goal was to exterminate all ghouls, Touka killing him is defending the ghouls of Tokyo

Ippei was a Bureau Investigator. He was an office worker. He was not allowed to carry a quinque, just Q bullets and firearms. The likelyhood of him actually exterminating a single ghoul, much less a significant amount, was minimal.

In a corrupt government, do you consider people who are not government officials, but simple secretaries, evil and worthy of killing? Even if they shared in the beliefs of the corrupt officials, does that warrant killing? If a bank steals from some people, but overall has a positive result for some others, do the secretaries have to take the weight of it?

Yoshimura and Touka, eventually, shared a common stance on this subject. It's not the same as yours.



Now back to previous points.

>Killing them is good since it stops them murdering again, it protects the innocent (in this case the ghouls though ill admit some of em are evil), which should be priotised over murderers in my opinion.

I will assume by "them" you meant CCG? What should you kill them for? All you have to do is take away their quinques (and jail them if you wish, but really, taking away their quinques does the job). The vast majority of them are defenseless against ghouls without one. And even with one, they can't beat a strong ghoul, such as the first OEK, Eto, Takizawa. The Washuus, who are in the CCG to create a power structure, are the only ones who should be done away with; this doesn't even have to be achieved by killing them, but by removing them from power (which is what Goat is trying to do).

You seem to assume most ghouls are innocent and good. Why? The 20th Ward, when Anteiku was there, was proven to be an anomaly, in which ghouls hardly kill. Even then, Nishiki was still killing, the ghouls in all the other wards (including ghouls who we perceive to be "good", such as Uta and Itori) were killing, and you've got things like the whole Ghoul Restaurant which is huge. Even after Kaneki did away with many of them in TG, it was a large organization by the time of the Auction. They aren't killing just to feed themselves, they are killing for entertainment.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I am not saying ghouls are bad, but just as you say humans have an alternative in the form of facilities, they had an alternative in the form of scavenging, yet many chose not to do so, and that's why humans still feel wronged.

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">>CCG in general

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Already answered in my reply in my previous comment, to an extent. But again, you are wrong. The CCG started to exterminate the OEK from a century ago, and likely some ghouls that would have stood by OEK in whatever endeavor was threatening humanity. After that, its major job should have been reconciliation of the two species. Outside of the very top, the CCG is not evil, but its ways are completely obsolete.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">As for your facilities idea, I will get back to it later, as it becomes more relevant in other points.

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">''>Ghouls do not have an alternative to killing. Scavenging for bodies? Where from?''

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Do you not remember that Yoshimura and Yomo taught Kaneki about scavenging? They did it from people who committed suicide. Ryouko and Hinami were aided by Anteiku, so I'll take it they were also scavengers. Arata, Touka's own father, was nicknamed "Corpse Collector" by the CCG, meaning he was also a scavenger. As I said before though, scavenging cannot possibly satisfy all demands, but it's not as far fetched a thing as you make it out to be.

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">>(the facilities, again)

<p style="font-weight:normal;">And again, I'll reiterate the CCG is completely obsolete in its ways, as they could have tried to do something about ghouls keeping on eating humans before. Now, before I go on, I'll have to work off a few assumptions here; afterwards I'll try to work without those assumptions.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Given that the setting is Tokyo, with exactly the same wards as modern day Tokyo, rather than "whatever fictional city" as many series choose to do, it could be read as an intention for the reader to assume this as the real Tokyo, with the same macro-issues and also a new issue of ghouls (o ne of those issues was the environmental one that I discussed in my previous comment in this thread). While I can think of both reasons to accept this refute it, the following is based on the assumption that this is true.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Tokyo Ghoul starts in 2012, and by 2016 they have exterminated (?) Eto, the strongest ghoul known to them. That's four years. But the Ghoul Countermeasures Institution, the version of the CCG that happened in 1890, did not have quinques, which were developed after the foundation of the modern CCG in 1939, so four years seems like... quite short of a time to deal with the OEK. This OEK likely took longer than that to exterminate, which gives very little leeway between this and the start of WWI.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Between 1890 and 1914, Japan had just incorporated the Meiji Constitution and was dealing with conquests and rapid industrialization, so investment in anything other than war/industrial advancement of the country sounds unlikely. Let's assume the OEK took fewer than 24 years to exterminate and there was investment in trying to make ghouls coexist with humans; even if it had happened, once 1914 hit with WWI, that likely would have gone to waste. 1914-1918 are lost years in those terms, plus post-war restoration of the country.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">However long it took, the start of WWII in 1939, 21 years from the end of 1918, gives even less leeway to start a system where ghouls can live peacefully among humans. The post-war economic miracle of Japan isn't until the 1960s, in which, then, it could have been reasonable to try to institutionalize the coexistence of ghouls...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Except Japan's relationship with communist states has not been favorable for pretty much all of the 20th century. Communist movements were shut down by the government. The problem with the facilities you suggest is that they reek of communist practices, which Japan quite disliked, as they had spent at least a few decades under Western influence (first Dutch merchants, then America post Edo enclosure). By the time of the fall of the USSR in 1991, Japan was entering its economic crisis, which lasts until now, and makes it quite hard to implement any of what you're saying, even if the thought surrounding it changed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">In short, between 1890-1960s it would have been quite impossible, then it would have just been dumb pettiness, then in the 1990s and up 'till now it would have become unsustainable (especially after 2011) pretty much because there is no money.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">'''Now let's go off the assumption that all of that history doesn't exist in the world of Tokyo Ghoul! '''

<p style="font-weight:normal;">If you were paying attention, two major events in Japan's history match the foundation of CCG's predecessor and the CCG itself - 1890, Meiji Constitution (and subsequent conquests) and foundation of GCI; 1939, WWII and foundation of CCG. Which means that either Ishida conveniently and purposefully replaced these events, which we perceive as destructive and oppressive, with the formation of human institutions that are threatening the environment; or they were formed because Japan was having so much fun at war that it was necessary to create these to fight whatever was happening inside the country.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The second choice can go along the historical assumption, and the first is self-explanatory. "Create institutions with under the guise of self-defense and survival, that when overpowered, keep ravaging resources/living things while also threatening humankind's own survival". Hey, sounds familiar. Either way.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Even without the... developmental barriers of the 20th century in the way, so to say, what you suggest is a simple solution with a very hard implementation. It is not really up to the CCG, but by the government (or by the part of the government that allows the CCG to exist). As I said before, a life in which you're either killed by a ghoul and eaten, or eaten after dying, would seem very bleak for humans. What point is there in living without the chance of ghouls ending your life when they will just eat you afterwards anyway?

<p style="font-weight:normal;">I don't disagree with the concept, but I'm saying it's not nearly as simple as it sounds (I had already explained some of it: the implementation requires infrastructure and investment, plus willingness to give away the dead, and then the moral question of who gets to be buried/cremated and who doesn't, if there's a surplus of bodies). In theory, all of communism is wonderful, but it hasn't worked outside of very, very small societies.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Yes, it's human selfishness. Yet I can hardly think of authentic examples of altruism, where humans are willing to think 100% rationally and look after the good of all of humanity, rather than their own individual good. If I said you had to give up having a cell phone because it uses coltan, which is causing environmental and social disaster in the Democratic Republic of Congo, would you? If you would, what about the person next to you? And how about the next? And this one is something so simple. If the human society of Tokyo Ghoul gave no regard to their dead, I could accept calling it simple, but with the amount of time Akira and Amon (and the Quinx, even without a body to mourn) have spent visiting graves, it doesn't seem to be that way.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Even Kaneki could just finally admit to his actions being selfishly motivated by a few, rather than by the grandiose concept of acting for all of humankind (that, however, Arima and Eto had). Calling it simple is very idealistic. The issue is not coming up with an idea that can make human-ghoul coexistence work, but to build the pathway that would let people to allow it to exist and make it work. The manga as a whole is dealing with the latter issue. I don't think nobody has thought of a solution to the former in the world of TG, which might or may not approximate yours, but storytelling constraints mean that would have to be dealt with later.