Talk:Ken Kaneki/@comment-24494906-20151221001712

So I just have to write this somewhere (not sure if Kaneki's page is the right one, but eh).

It's about Kaneki in chapter 57 and the actions he took to keep Tsukiyama survive.

On reddit, someone gave his definition as to what means to "save someone", and that Kaneki did not save Tsukiyama. I was replying and that guy was always telling me I'm missing the point. At one point, I realized what the mistake in my thought process was.

Basically, this guy reduced "saving" to actions with the intent to guarantee someone's survival. When I realized that and that the redditor completely ignores viability of the options, I just replied that when there is no action that fits this definition of "saving" and is also viable, the discussion about whether Kaneki saved Tsukiyama or not is pretty useless and irrelevant. I just did not realize that someone would make a useless definition.

Originally, I was thinking that the redditor was also considering viability and likelihood of Tsukiyama's survival. I basically replied that the choice he proposed (Kaneki suggesting to keep Tsukiyama alive) would not be obviously a better choice, because Tsukiyama has made it clear that imprisonment isn't any better than death. Moreover, I basically refuted that the options he brought up were clearly better than the one Kaneki chose. That's why I brought the discussion here, because I want to explain this second point.

I think Kaneki's choice was close to maximizing the likelihood of Tsukiyama's survival (though choosing this option is so rational it's scary).

The main feature of Kaneki's course of action is that it's all about him staying in control of the situation. All initiative rests with him, and the actions he takes also ensure that he stays in control. It basically turns Ui and Tsukiyama into extras; their actions on the roof no longer change the outcome. The only variable is Kanae, but it's a pretty easy prediction that Kanae will do everything possible to ensure Tsukiyama's survival, even if it costs Kanae's life, and he takes actions such that Kanae will behave just as predicted. The only question is: Will Kanae be successul in saving Tsukiyama? And can Tsukiyama get away afterwards? That's the bet of this option. In this option, incapaciting Tsukiyama before Ui arrives is important. If Tsukiyama is not incapacitated, then he's no longer an extra, but might take some initiative himself. It's likely he starts fighting back, so Kaneki is no longer in control of the situation, and the moment this fight involves Ui in some way, Tsukiyama will most likely die, as Kaneki can no longer "finish" him off by himself.

Take for example the option to suggest to Ui to let Tsukiyama live: The moment Kaneki suggests this option, he loses all control of the situation. If Ui refuses, Tsukiyama will mostly likely die. Tsukiyama has refused this option before, so he might start fighting back again, even if he is extremely weakened; then he's dead, too. And finally, it's not possible to steer Kanae's actions in this option; if Kanae acts up, Kaneki loses control of the situation, Tsukiyama will probably act to help Kanae, and at the end, Tsukiyama will die again. The Kanae problem can be partially remedied, though, by incapacitating Kanae before Ui arrives. But since there's some Eto kagune in there, it's questionable if it's possible to incapacitate Kanae long enough. There are too many actors here, so I think the probability of Tsukiyama's survival is actually smaller than in the previous option. Kaneki could try to get rid of potential interference by Tsukiyama (mostly) and Kanae: Beat Tsukiyama unconscious and kill Kanae. Then everything depends on Ui. But if Ui refuses the suggestion, then Tsukiyama's death is not only really likely, it's basically guaranteed. And I didn't even talk yet about interference by Matsuri or the higher-ups later.